360 handling questions

[isuk]

I've just bought a 2000 360 manual. The car had a new steering rack fitted by Graypaul before I collected it and has done just short of 20k miles. I've only test driven 2 other 360's before buying this car but the handling on both felt pretty good. My car feels extremely nervous and very slight steering inputs cause it to significantly change direction. The best way I can describe it is feeling like the handling on a professional go cart or a race car fitted with a quick rack. Graypaul are taking it back tomorrow to check out the geometry settings. I've already checked the tyre pressures as they had fitted new tyres to it. Both fronts were fine but the rears were set at 2.3 and 2.1 when they should have been set at 2.0 bar (typical dealer cock up there).

As I'm not used to Ferrari's is this handling trait normal? I've just switched over from a Porsche 997 C2 which I had from new for 6 months. The handling on that kicks my 360 (in it's current state) well and truly in the a$$ and I can't believe that should be the case.

The second issue I have is what sounds like terrible front wheel scrub when manouevering at low speed. The tyres seem to drag across the surface causing the steering to shudder. The dealer claims this is common but is it?
Any advice greatfully received.

[Ferraritech]

I've just bought a 2000 360 manual. The car had a new steering rack fitted by Graypaul before I collected it and has done just short of 20k miles. I've only test driven 2 other 360's before buying this car but the handling on both felt pretty good. My car feels extremely nervous and very slight steering inputs cause it to significantly change direction. The best way I can describe it is feeling like the handling on a professional go cart or a race car fitted with a quick rack. Graypaul are taking it back tomorrow to check out the geometry settings. I've already checked the tyre pressures as they had fitted new tyres to it. Both fronts were fine but the rears were set at 2.3 and 2.1 when they should have been set at 2.0 bar (typical dealer cock up there).

As I'm not used to Ferrari's is this handling trait normal? I've just switched over from a Porsche 997 C2 which I had from new for 6 months. The handling on that kicks my 360 (in it's current state) well and truly in the a$$ and I can't believe that should be the case.

The second issue I have is what sounds like terrible front wheel scrub when manouevering at low speed. The tyres seem to drag across the surface causing the steering to shudder. The dealer claims this is common but is it?
Any advice greatfully received.

Iain,

Couple of things, make sure that you check the tyre pressures with cold tyres, also get Graypaul to check the lower front suspension arms - the ball joints are prone to wear and if worn will give the car a nervous feeling (number 12 in picture).

Tyre drag is common when manouvering at low speed - it's more noticable on a shiny surface (tiled or painted floor)

[isuk]

Thanks for the response. The service manager told me the ball joints had been replaced at the same time as the steering column. I guess I'll have to wait and see what they discover. If they say it's fine then I guess that it isn't the car for me. If that happens I'll be offering a good deal on a fantastic condition 360.

[Hud]

I've just bought a 2000 360 manual. The car had a new steering rack fitted by Graypaul before I collected it and has done just short of 20k miles. I've only test driven 2 other 360's before buying this car but the handling on both felt pretty good. My car feels extremely nervous and very slight steering inputs cause it to significantly change direction. The best way I can describe it is feeling like the handling on a professional go cart or a race car fitted with a quick rack. Graypaul are taking it back tomorrow to check out the geometry settings. I've already checked the tyre pressures as they had fitted new tyres to it. Both fronts were fine but the rears were set at 2.3 and 2.1 when they should have been set at 2.0 bar (typical dealer cock up there).

As I'm not used to Ferrari's is this handling trait normal? I've just switched over from a Porsche 997 C2 which I had from new for 6 months. The handling on that kicks my 360 (in it's current state) well and truly in the a$$ and I can't believe that should be the case.

The second issue I have is what sounds like terrible front wheel scrub when manouevering at low speed. The tyres seem to drag across the surface causing the steering to shudder. The dealer claims this is common but is it?
Any advice greatfully received.

Hi Ian

I live in Northamptonshire (kettering) too, and also have a 360 (from Graypaul). If you fancy meeting up at any stage let me know. Im going to vmax at bruntingthorpe airfield this weekend if you fancy going over together? your quite welcome to have a blat in mine and see how the handling compares.

[GrahamS]

Thanks for the response. The service manager told me the ball joints had been replaced at the same time as the steering column. I guess I'll have to wait and see what they discover. If they say it's fine then I guess that it isn't the car for me. If that happens I'll be offering a good deal on a fantastic condition 360.
Correction: If they say it's fine then take it somewhere else. Ferraris aren't exactly renowned for twitchy handling.

[Ferraritech]

Thanks for the response. The service manager told me the ball joints had been replaced at the same time as the steering column. I guess I'll have to wait and see what they discover. If they say it's fine then I guess that it isn't the car for me. If that happens I'll be offering a good deal on a fantastic condition 360.

Definately shouldn't be as you describe, I would get the service manager to test it before they start work on it, that way he will experience the problem first hand and then to test the car after any "adjustments"

Do you know why the steering rack was replaced at such a low mileage?

[isuk]

Graham, I won't accept the answer that it's fine without demanding a test drive in another car as a means of comparison. If they don't resolve it they will be taking it back.

Hudson, thanks for the kind offer. You are just along the road from me but I can't make this weekend unfortunately. On top of that the other half will kill me if I mention cars again. I've been dragging her round showrooms for months :grin: Perhaps we can have a mini meet on another date?

[isuk]

Do you know why the steering rack was replaced at such a low mileage?

I don't but I will be asking the question. It doesn't look like the car has had any front end repairs but I'm not an expert.

[Jules]

Iain - I'm having mine looked at next week - similar noise/rattle problems, and when I turn left at very low speeds, the wheel sort of jumps. Malcolm's been great in pointing out the potential problem - so Nick Cartwrights going to take a look at it. I also had quite a few hazardous moments on the Leeds/Peaks run on the weekend, expecially under heavy braking (well that's what I told the rest as an excuse for me being at the back along with a 430!:shocked: :shocked:)

[isuk]

Julian,

Mine doesn't actually make any noises but it does feel like it wants to throw you off the road. I know the car is 5 years older than my 997 was but I still can't believe that it is meant to handle like this. I hope they sort it out. If they don't then I'm going to look at importing a 997 C4S from Denmark to offset some of the loss I'm bound to take on the 360.

Nick is a nice bloke. I went to see one of his cars but decided that a 360 in silver just didn't do it for me. If anyone is going to be helpful at sorting a problem I'd say it would be him from my first impression. Good luck.

[isuk]

Update. Just got off the phone to Graypaul. I'm told the steering rack was replaced due to a hydraulic fluid leak and that the car has not had a front end accident at any point. They reckon the glue used to secure part of the ball joints (??) may be the cause of the problem but have said they will road test it prior to working on it and will resolve the problem for me.

[GrahamS]

Update. Just got off the phone to Graypaul. I'm told the steering rack was replaced due to a hydraulic fluid leak and that the car has not had a front end accident at any point. They reckon the glue used to secure part of the ball joints (??) may be the cause of the problem but have said they will road test it prior to working on it and will resolve the problem for me.
Now aren't you glad you joined FCars.net :cheers:

[Ferraritech]

Update. Just got off the phone to Graypaul. I'm told the steering rack was replaced due to a hydraulic fluid leak and that the car has not had a front end accident at any point. They reckon the glue used to secure part of the ball joints (??) may be the cause of the problem but have said they will road test it prior to working on it and will resolve the problem for me.

If it turns out to be the ball joints (which I think it will be) ask them if they are going to change the complete arm or just the ball joint, because I seem to recall that the earlier cars couldn't have just the ball joint replaced.

[isuk]

Thanks for the help and pointers guys. I will ask about what parts they are replacing. If the car isn't right when it comes back they'll know about it as I don't like being taken for a ride.

[Hud]

Thanks for the help and pointers guys. I will ask about what parts they are replacing. If the car isn't right when it comes back they'll know about it as I don't like being taken for a ride.

if youre near kettering tonight theres some of us gonna be in the raj on rockingham road at about 8.30ish.

[Hazy]

Iain - I'm having mine looked at next week - similar noise/rattle problems, and when I turn left at very low speeds, the wheel sort of jumps. Malcolm's been great in pointing out the potential problem - so Nick Cartwrights going to take a look at it. I also had quite a few hazardous moments on the Leeds/Peaks run on the weekend, expecially under heavy braking (well that's what I told the rest as an excuse for me being at the back along with a 430!:shocked: :shocked:)

Hahaha...your "hazardous moments" came about coz you were taking photographs at 100mph + on twisty roads jules :D:D:D

[Jules]

Hahaha...your "hazardous moments" came about coz you were taking photographs at 100mph + on twisty roads jules :D:D:D

Adam - I'll try to leave that minor point out of my snag list:wink3:

[ted 191]

[QUOTE=isuk]I've just bought a 2000 360 manual. The car had a new steering rack fitted by Graypaul before I collected it and has done just short of 20k miles. I've only test driven 2 other 360's before buying this car but the handling on both felt pretty good. My car feels extremely nervous and very slight steering inputs cause it to significantly change direction. The best way I can describe it is feeling like the handling on a professional go cart or a race car fitted with a quick rack. Graypaul are taking it back tomorrow to check out the geometry settings. I've already checked the tyre pressures as they had fitted new tyres to it. Both fronts were fine but the rears were set at 2.3 and 2.1 when they should have been set at 2.0 bar (typical dealer cock up there).

As I'm not used to Ferrari's is this handling trait normal? I've just switched over from a Porsche 997 C2 which I had from new for 6 months. The handling on that kicks my 360 (in it's current state) well and truly in the a$$ and I can't believe that should be the case.

i have the same front end problem with my 360(swapped from 355 but also tried 997sand gt2) had the geometry checked ,ball joints ok.just getting the hang of the front end being very twitchy,keep me posted on the out come(do you deal with david at graypaul)

[barabus]

Julian,

Mine doesn't actually make any noises but it does feel like it wants to throw you off the road. I know the car is 5 years older than my 997 was but I still can't believe that it is meant to handle like this. I hope they sort it out. If they don't then I'm going to look at importing a 997 C4S from Denmark to offset some of the loss I'm bound to take on the 360.

Nick is a nice bloke. I went to see one of his cars but decided that a 360 in silver just didn't do it for me. If anyone is going to be helpful at sorting a problem I'd say it would be him from my first impression. Good luck.

Ian surely if theres something major wrong with the car and you've only just bought it you'll either get it fixed or get your money back would'nt you??

[steve f]

Ian surely if theres something major wrong with the car and you've only just bought it you'll either get it fixed or get your money back would'nt you??
there is a common fault with the 360 that effects the 355 348 328 308 they all have 4 cylinders missing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[barabus]

there is a common fault with the 360 that effects the 355 348 328 308 they all have 4 cylinders missing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Steve that goes without saying:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[ted 191]

there is a common fault with the 360 that effects the 355 348 328 308 they all have 4 cylinders missing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
but they still handle better than your dinasaur:grin:

[barabus]

but they still handle better than your dinasaur:grin:

Not so ours aren't twitchy:laugh:

[isuk]

Chris,

I have been dealing with David at Graypaul. If it turns out to be a handling trait of the 360 I'll either have to learn to get used to it or sell it and buy another 997. I believe Tiff Needell referred to the "twitchy" handling of the 360 when he did his test of the F430 spyder the other night and said that Ferrari have resolved it on the F430. If only I had enough cash for one of those.... :thumbsup:

[Hud]

Chris,

I have been dealing with David at Graypaul. If it turns out to be a handling trait of the 360 I'll either have to learn to get used to it or sell it and buy another 997. I believe Tiff Needell referred to the "twitchy" handling of the 360 when he did his test of the F430 spyder the other night and said that Ferrari have resolved it on the F430. If only I had enough cash for one of those.... :thumbsup:

definately no twitch with mine.solid as a rock.

[ted 191]

Iain,
davids a top bloke,sorted my rossa and 355.
driven lots of challange cars, they have fantastic ballance, thats why i bought 360m (may have to fit slicks!)

[ted 191]

definately no twitch with mine.solid as a rock.
your not driving fast enough !:laugh: :laugh:

[steve f]

but they still handle better than your dinasaur:grin:
have i to tell every body that you was the dinasaur in jct :laugh: better not

[ted 191]

have i to tell every body that you was the dinasaur in jct :laugh: better not
not seen it yet, but the price has come down

[isuk]

Chris,

When I met Nick Cartwright he only had good things to say about David as well. I'm sure my car is not set up correctly as I test drove a TDF blue 360 at Graypaul's before they found me this red car. The TDF car handled extremely well and I was encouraged to give it a bit of stick on my test drive so I duly obliged and it felt surefooted :grin:

[isuk]

Had a call from Graypaul. I won't get my car back until next Tuesday by the look of things. They are resetting the geometry and have had to order new shims. Looks like I was right about the poor handling and the car not being right. Perhaps one of the more technical guys can explain to me what shims are?

[ted 191]

Had a call from Graypaul. I won't get my car back until next Tuesday by the look of things. They are resetting the geometry and have had to order new shims. Looks like I was right about the poor handling and the car not being right. Perhaps one of the more technical guys can explain to me what shims are?
may use shims to alter camber \caster , look like washers

[Ferraritech]

Had a call from Graypaul. I won't get my car back until next Tuesday by the look of things. They are resetting the geometry and have had to order new shims. Looks like I was right about the poor handling and the car not being right. Perhaps one of the more technical guys can explain to me what shims are?

When you speak to Graypaul next ask them what the settings were before adjustments

[isuk]

Malcolm,

The service advisor is calling tomorrow so I will ask him then. He seemed a bit anxious not to go into too much detail when I spoke to him on Friday.

[360trev]

Not so ours aren't twitchy:laugh:

Depends on which year of production MR2 you based your replica on, pre-93 and your rear lower trailing arms are a couple of inches shorter than they should be :) heh (runs for cover...). Still at least the balljoints on an MR2 only cost £30 !

[360trev]

Malcolm,

The service advisor is calling tomorrow so I will ask him then. He seemed a bit anxious not to go into too much detail when I spoke to him on Friday.

Probably because he doesn't understand what the hell your talking about when you start to mention ball joints, etc. :) LoL!

I'd be worried that the car had been in a frontal impact if it needed a steering rack so early in its life. It just doesn't sound right to me :(

[isuk]

Trev,

The service manager has guaranteed that it has definately not been crashed. That was my initial thought when I heard about the rack with so few miles on the car. Racks only fail due to three causes as far as I know - crash damage, heavy kerb impact damage or fluid leak. The rack on my car had a fluid leak which was diagnosed during the 101 point used car check. They were putting it through an MOT for me and it would have failed on this point so they replaced the rack. I think the tech who did the work did not reset the geometry correctly afterwards. These cars seem to be as fine tuned as race cars and don't have any real tolerances built in so slight errors can cause very pooor handling.

I noted on Top Gear last night that Clarkson and Ian Wright both referred to the 360's twitchy handling. Tiff Needell also mentioned this when driving the F430 spider on last week's fifth gear. In Ian Wright's case his twitchy handling led to a major shunt....though he did admit to switching off the TC just before this happened :grin:

I'm contemplating my options should the car still feel nervous when I get it back. If it doesn't feel a whole lot safer then I'm going back to a 997 as they are extremely sure footed and easily expoitable. I hope it doesn't get to that though.

[isuk]

Dealer service advisor has called to say the car now handles as it should. They've altered the front tracking and put shims on the rear suspension to sort out the geometry. They are now working on the other jobs I asked them to do.

[360trev]

Dealer service advisor has called to say the car now handles as it should. They've altered the front tracking and put shims on the rear suspension to sort out the geometry. They are now working on the other jobs I asked them to do.

Thats great news. All I know is that the handling on the car is excellent when its alignment is properly setup. I haven't dared turn off the TC yet (put it into Sports mode) :) not at this time of year on public roads. We shall see, lets hope you enjoy the car now... I know my 360 feels excellent and the steering is second to none...

Trevor

[Ferraritech]

Dealer service advisor has called to say the car now handles as it should. They've altered the front tracking and put shims on the rear suspension to sort out the geometry. They are now working on the other jobs I asked them to do.

Iain - did they tell you what the settings were before they started work ?

[isuk]

Malcolm,

He didn't go into that level of detail with me. What info should I request i.e. what should the setting info look like? I don't know what info to ask for.

[Ferraritech]

Malcolm,

He didn't go into that level of detail with me. What info should I request i.e. what should the setting info look like? I don't know what info to ask for.

Ian, ask him the following............

1. What were the front and rear track settings
2. What weren the front and rear camber settings
3. Did they check the ride heights?
4. Although the castor is fixed (non adjustable) what readings did they record?

Below is what the figures should be......................

[isuk]

Malcolm,

Your help on this issue is greatly appreciated as my technical skills are a bit limited. I hope that they are working to the same info seeing as they are a main dealer but having said that they let the car come out with duff settings in the first place so I'm none too impressed with my first foray into the world of Ferrari.

Cheers,

Iain

[360trev]

Malcolm,

Your help on this issue is greatly appreciated as my technical skills are a bit limited. I hope that they are working to the same info seeing as they are a main dealer but having said that they let the car come out with duff settings in the first place so I'm none too impressed with my first foray into the world of Ferrari.

Cheers,

Iain

In my experience not all main dealers are the same! This is especially true in the world of cars. So they all hide behind the banner of the manufacturer but at the end of the day they are only so good as the engineers, mechanics and managers behind the scenes doing the work, i.e. the people! Which dealership do you work for Malcolm? I'm impressed with your knowledge!!

Trev

[SteveP]

I've just bought a 2000 360 manual. The car had a new steering rack fitted by Graypaul before I collected it and has done just short of 20k miles. I've only test driven 2 other 360's before buying this car but the handling on both felt pretty good. My car feels extremely nervous and very slight steering inputs cause it to significantly change direction. The best way I can describe it is feeling like the handling on a professional go cart or a race car fitted with a quick rack. Graypaul are taking it back tomorrow to check out the geometry settings. I've already checked the tyre pressures as they had fitted new tyres to it. Both fronts were fine but the rears were set at 2.3 and 2.1 when they should have been set at 2.0 bar (typical dealer cock up there).

As I'm not used to Ferrari's is this handling trait normal? I've just switched over from a Porsche 997 C2 which I had from new for 6 months. The handling on that kicks my 360 (in it's current state) well and truly in the a$$ and I can't believe that should be the case.

The second issue I have is what sounds like terrible front wheel scrub when manouevering at low speed. The tyres seem to drag across the surface causing the steering to shudder. The dealer claims this is common but is it?
Any advice greatfully received.


mine did the same , it felt like the car was wondering in 6th gear at around 60-70 mph, the dealer replaced the whole front suspension and the car was fine after that

[ted 191]

Ian, ask him the following............

1. What were the front and rear track settings
2. What weren the front and rear camber settings
3. Did they check the ride heights?
4. Although the castor is fixed (non adjustable) what readings did they record?

Below is what the figures should be......................
Good info Malcolm,
what are the toe in measurements in degrees,looks like my car will be going in for full geometry check:

[Ferraritech]

Which dealership do you work for Malcolm? I'm impressed with your knowledge!!Trev

Hi Trev,
In a nutshell I started with Ferrari in 1973 working on the "spanners" for Maranello Concessionaires and am still employed by them under the banner of Ferrari UK, (up till 2004) which was our old trading name and has yet to be decided on a replacement name. :wink3: :wink3:

[Ferraritech]

Good info Malcolm,
what are the toe in measurements in degrees,looks like my car will be going in for full geometry check:

Hi Chris,

I would recommend that the repair shop use "mm" not degrees and minutes as some equipment reads 60 minutes = 1 degree and others read 100 minutes = 1 degree.

Don't quote me on this but assuming 60 minutes = 1 degree I estimate that 2.5mm = 0 degrees 24 minutes and 3.5mm = 0 degrees and 28 minutes, but as I said this is an estimate and I would use the metric measurments that most manufacturers use.

I suppose for info if there are any mathmaticians out there there must be a formula for converting millimetres to degrees and minutes, but the formula has to take into account the wheel diameter and how many minutes in a degree (60 / 100) so there would have to be two formula. :huh: :huh: :huh:

[ted 191]

Iain
Got your car back yet?

[isuk]

Went out for a road test in my 360 today and it was like driving a totally different car. The handling is now spot on and it was a joy to drive. I now feel that trading in my 997 was well worth it to get my hands on such a great car.

The dealer has adjusted the tracking and geometry and fitted another set of ball joints (the first set they fitted seemed to have made the handling worse by all accounts). I'm very pleased with the manner in which they responded to my complaint about the car having been delivered with such a poor set up. Top marks for salvaging my respect for their dealership and for putting their money where their mouth is. Can't wait 'til they deliver it back on Friday and I hope the weather stays mild so I can take it out for a good run.

[spidermanUK]

Went out for a road test in my 360 today and it was like driving a totally different car. The handling is now spot on and it was a joy to drive. I now feel that trading in my 997 was well worth it to get my hands on such a great car.

The dealer has adjusted the tracking and geometry and fitted another set of ball joints (the first set they fitted seemed to have made the handling worse by all accounts). I'm very pleased with the manner in which they responded to my complaint about the car having been delivered with such a poor set up. Top marks for salvaging my respect for their dealership and for putting their money where their mouth is. Can't wait 'til they deliver it back on Friday and I hope the weather stays mild so I can take it out for a good run.
Pleased to hear it, we all make mistakes (as the Dalek said climbing off the dustbin) but it's good to hear of someone taking responsibility, and putting it right without a big fight!:thumbsup:

[motd2k]

The TDF Blue 360 you tested wouldn't happen to have had a Tubi, and tan interior would it?? Damn, i miss that car :-/

[isuk]

Yes it did have the tan interior with the tubi. Dealer told me it was part ex'ed by a young guy for a 612?

[motd2k]

Yup, me :-)

612 is slightly more sedate in the aural department!

[isuk]

The 360 was a lovely car but just not my colour as I've never liked blue cars after a BMW I had around 10 years ago. I was looking for a red 360 but the salesman tried to sell me your old car after telling me that a tan interior was a no no in the UK only a week earlier. I was on the verge of buying a black/tan 360 from another independent at that point so he was trying to put me off! I kept quiet about that pointer of his when he called me to come and test drive the TDF/tan car.

Bit of a significant change moving to a 612. Didn't you fancy an F430?

[motd2k]

To be fair, Black/Tan isn't such a nice combo - Black/Crema is the classic.

I actually swapped a Quattroporte and the TDF 360 in for the 612.

The Maserati was, in my opinion, a horrific car - we just didn't get along! The 360 was alot of fun, but my wife was ready to drop our first so figured I may have to grow up a little - hence the 4 seats.

I'm remanicing over the bark of that damn exhaust now!

I agree with you about Graypaul's afterservice too, its actually a fairly refreshing change to find a main dealer that will put in the amount of effort that those guys will to keep you happy. Thumbs up, Mario and the gang :-)

[isuk]

Have to say I disagree on the black/tan v/s black/crema but then colour is all about individual tastes. The car I nearly bought was IMHO one of the best looking 360's I've ever seen. It was just too pricey though with the current fall in used 360 values for me to take on as I reckon I'd have lost over £10k as soon as I drove it out of the showroom then up to a further £10k over the next 6 to 12 months.