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Thread: 599GTB - Modificato Project

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    sssdu01 is offline No I'm Spartacus Committee Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by A348W View Post
    Did the factory say what contribution to the downforce the winglets provided. Quite interesting and I might just get my old naca books out and see if I can figure it out. (Serious test of the grey matter!)

    The end plates are interesting as well as they look far bigger than you would need, so either they are that way for style or something else is happening there.

    Cheers for posting up.
    I cant imagine that the winglets provide much of that downforce. I conclude this from conducting very unscientific studies whilst flying, and sticking my hands out into the airflow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A348W View Post
    Did the factory say what contribution to the downforce the winglets provided. Quite interesting and I might just get my old naca books out and see if I can figure it out. (Serious test of the grey matter!)

    The end plates are interesting as well as they look far bigger than you would need, so either they are that way for style or something else is happening there.

    Cheers for posting up.
    I’d rather you break out a software package as we have learned a great deal since the days of the NACA books.

    Think of the wing fences as the equivalent of your holiday airliner ones BUT upside down - then consider the length of the wing - very short and the top surface of the rear panel being a hard surface vs. The sky in the airliner example. Hence the proportion of fence required to produce the same holding effect. It’s likely that these winglets produce very little to the overall downforce figure but are very specific to the problem they are seeking to solve which won’t take that much to solve but to do it with little drag is the cool aspect for me. Note the bleed slot will at high speed improve the original downforce effect from the buttress / nolder combination by providing an upper holding layer of pressure over the boot. That these winglets therefore do two different things at different speeds is what I like about them more than the aesthetic...

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    Iíd rather you break out a software package as we have learned a great deal since the days of the NACA books.

    Think of the wing fences as the equivalent of your holiday airliner ones BUT upside down - then consider the length of the wing - very short and the top surface of the rear panel being a hard surface vs. The sky in the airliner example. Hence the proportion of fence required to produce the same holding effect. Itís likely that these winglets produce very little to the overall downforce figure but are very specific to the problem they are seeking to solve which wonít take that much to solve but to do it with little drag is the cool aspect for me. Note the bleed slot will at high speed improve the original downforce effect from the buttress / nolder combination by providing an upper holding layer of pressure over the boot. That these winglets therefore do two different things at different speeds is what I like about them more than the aesthetic...
    Software...steady on there

    It must be 30 years since I did any actual flow calc so Naca book is best it will get, and even that looks a bit daunting these days with all those equations. There are even integration signs in there

    Agree though that there are a few things that those winglets are doing, so its not just as simple as the downforce generated by them; but I was just curious as to see what downforce they did generate in isolation at the speeds mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssdu01 View Post
    I cant imagine that the winglets provide much of that downforce. I conclude this from conducting very unscientific studies whilst flying, and sticking my hands out into the airflow.
    I assume you stuck your hand out of the upper part of that lifting body so you will have been playing in low pressure. Modern cars donít lift and indeed many create downforce so have their high pressure on the upper surface. Putting you hands into the airflow on an aircraft vs a car understandably leads to very different feelings.

    Also if we are to have any discussions on modern aerodynamics letís get a few of the myths out of the way.

    1) How wings actually work - 95% of people are taught the wrong science that is out of date.

    https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/...gs-really-work

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    sssdu01 is offline No I'm Spartacus Committee Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modificato View Post
    I assume you stuck your hand out of the upper part of that lifting body so you will have been playing in low pressure. Modern cars donít lift and indeed many create downforce so have their high pressure on the upper surface. Putting you hands into the airflow on an aircraft vs a car understandably leads to very different feelings.

    Also if we are to have any discussions on modern aerodynamics letís get a few of the myths out of the way.

    1) How wings actually work - 95% of people are taught the wrong science that is out of date.

    https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/...gs-really-work
    That video is very misleading as the wing is approaching a stalled condition and in normal level flight the wing profile will be flatter. Also I cant agree with his assumption that most people have the wrong idea. All the pilots I know understand how a plane flies You could also put several aerodynamics experts in the same room and they will all have slightly different ideas, but the normal consensus is the leading edge of an aerofoil will produce some downforce and the trailing edge will produce lift - thats why the thickest part of the wing is always in the front quarter or third of the wing, leaving the trailing edge area much bigger than the leading edge. However its all a bit of a dark art as a flat plank of wood will generate lift given sufficient angle of attack and airspeed.

    Take a modern 747 at full load - each square foot of wing generates 165 Lbs of lift at take off speed - equate that to a Pitts Special stunt plane and it suggests it would only need 9.8 square feet of wing area to get off the ground but the actual wing area is 125 square feet. I put this as a toung in cheek question to two aerodynamicists and thats when they start to argue

  6. #236
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    Actually, I might get that software and model it in CFD = Colour For Dummies

    Although to be honest I'd have zero idea how to do this...!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssdu01 View Post
    That video is very misleading as the wing is approaching a stalled condition and in normal level flight the wing profile will be flatter. Also I cant agree with his assumption that most people have the wrong idea. All the pilots I know understand how a plane flies You could also put several aerodynamics experts in the same room and they will all have slightly different ideas, but the normal consensus is the leading edge of an aerofoil will produce some downforce and the trailing edge will produce lift - thats why the thickest part of the wing is always in the front quarter or third of the wing, leaving the trailing edge area much bigger than the leading edge. However its all a bit of a dark art as a flat plank of wood will generate lift given sufficient angle of attack and airspeed.

    Take a modern 747 at full load - each square foot of wing generates 165 Lbs of lift at take off speed - equate that to a Pitts Special stunt plane and it suggests it would only need 9.8 square feet of wing area to get off the ground but the actual wing area is 125 square feet. I put this as a toung in cheek question to two aerodynamicists and thats when they start to argue
    Nice...paradox

    The 95% he referred to is not your experts.

    His assumption is for the general population and is in my experience correct.

    He is highlighting that in general education people are taught wrongly.

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