Hi All, I have had my 458 Italia now for 7 years but it has always had a Problem when starting, always on trickle charger, even fitted a new battery, overhauled and bench tested starter motor, checked grounds and wiring, but all to no avail ??, Here is what happens, I turn on Ignition wait till all the system light go out then I press the Starter button and 9 times out of ten it just gives a small grunt and does not even turn the engine over ??, so I turn the Ignition off and then on again wait till all the lights go out and nine times out of ten it fires up straight away ??, occasionally it might take two or three attempts but it always starts, sometimes if it hesitates but starts then all the Warning screens come on so then I just let it run for a couple of minutes switch it of and restart and all is fine, from what I have heard on other Forums it is a common problem so if anyone has a cure please let me know, Thanks, Regards DM
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Ferrari 458 Italia, Starting Problem ????
- Thread starter dinoman
- Start date
So it sounds like the start signal is getting to the starter motor (at first try), but there is just not enough umphh to energise the solenoid and turn the starter motor?
i.e. there nothing wrong with the start logic itself.
Maybe not enough current flowing through or to the start relay on first attempt? If the 458 is anything like the 360 and F430, the start signal goes through 3 different relays, so it's easy to see how these cars develop issues.
The F430 has a relay which is energised when the OEM battery charger is in use. When the charger is removed, the relay relaxes and the contacts of the de-energised allow starting. If this relay is not returning fully to its relaxed position, there would be a weak current being sent to the starter relay. I just don't know if there is an equivalent on the 458. If you haven't already done so, I would at least replace the T40 relay. According to the owners manual there are also "R1" and "R2" starter power relays, but no location is given. I don't have any full wiring diagrams for the 458, but I have a diagram showing the car's cable network and there seems to be two relay behind the LH seat which seem to be related to starting. In that diagram, the relay sockets are labelled L201 and L202, but the relays themselves are labelled 3 and 2.
See page 1994 of this document:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/BmQZuN3mQq7AYHdi (large file)
On a cold car, have you tried connecting a start bump switch to see if the starter engages and turns the engine?
https://www.amazon.com/Remote-Starter-Switch-Heavy-6V-12V/dp/B08XBP69Q5
i.e. no relays involved and no start logic required.
Interestingly, the WSM says each time the battery is reconnected to the car, you have to wait 1 minute before inserting the key in the ignition and then wait a further minute before pushing the start switch.
Does the car have a stop/start system? I wonder if that is interfering with the start?
i.e. there nothing wrong with the start logic itself.
Maybe not enough current flowing through or to the start relay on first attempt? If the 458 is anything like the 360 and F430, the start signal goes through 3 different relays, so it's easy to see how these cars develop issues.
The F430 has a relay which is energised when the OEM battery charger is in use. When the charger is removed, the relay relaxes and the contacts of the de-energised allow starting. If this relay is not returning fully to its relaxed position, there would be a weak current being sent to the starter relay. I just don't know if there is an equivalent on the 458. If you haven't already done so, I would at least replace the T40 relay. According to the owners manual there are also "R1" and "R2" starter power relays, but no location is given. I don't have any full wiring diagrams for the 458, but I have a diagram showing the car's cable network and there seems to be two relay behind the LH seat which seem to be related to starting. In that diagram, the relay sockets are labelled L201 and L202, but the relays themselves are labelled 3 and 2.
See page 1994 of this document:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/BmQZuN3mQq7AYHdi (large file)
On a cold car, have you tried connecting a start bump switch to see if the starter engages and turns the engine?
https://www.amazon.com/Remote-Starter-Switch-Heavy-6V-12V/dp/B08XBP69Q5
i.e. no relays involved and no start logic required.
Interestingly, the WSM says each time the battery is reconnected to the car, you have to wait 1 minute before inserting the key in the ignition and then wait a further minute before pushing the start switch.
Does the car have a stop/start system? I wonder if that is interfering with the start?
did it work?
458 Starting Problem
Hi sorry no, I have checked everything, if I run the power direct to the solenoid it will start every time ??, so it is only when I press the start button on the steering wheel that it will fail to start the first or second time ??, but has always eventually started, so it must be something to do with the Starter Relay, so which is the correct relay, it says in the handbook it has 2 relays I could find one from the pics but it turned out to not be correct as I tried the start button with the relay removed and it started ? so can anyone advise which is the correct relay for the Starter motor, again thanks for all your help, Regards DM
I don't understand the symptoms and it's basically impossible to make a diagnosis when we have no wiring diagrams.
The control side of the relays seems to be responding to the signals all the time (i.e. the control side is ok). You can hear the starter solenod attempting to engage. There is just not enough current getting to the starter solenoid through those relays all the time. Does the 458 have some bizarre setup where the relays are in parallel (rather than in series as they are on the 360F430) and you need the current from both?
When you have "hotwired" the starter, were there any previous attempts at starting the normal way (shortly before)? If so, it may not rule out the starter being at fault.
Anyway, you need to find both of the relays listed in the manuals. I suspect that the start relays are these black ones just behind the left hand door:
The workshop manual has this diagram, but perhaps they haven't bothered to angle the starter relays
Did you replace the fuse?
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I see there are also these relays behind the glovebox.
Is one of these relays the one you removed? The first one just cuts out certain systems during start to reduce the load on the battery. I suppose this could cause difficult starts.
Also, if the battery is not difficult to get to, make sure the nuts on these fuses are tight:
(Caution: Live battery power)
I'm just wondering if the relays in my previous post are related to the optional stop/start system? Do you have them?
Is one of these relays the one you removed? The first one just cuts out certain systems during start to reduce the load on the battery. I suppose this could cause difficult starts.
Also, if the battery is not difficult to get to, make sure the nuts on these fuses are tight:
(Caution: Live battery power)
I'm just wondering if the relays in my previous post are related to the optional stop/start system? Do you have them?
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458 Starting Problem
Hi Ian,Thanks again for all your help and the Pics, The relay I changed was T20 behind the glove box ?, but as I said with it removed it would still start so definitely the wrong relay, and as you asked had I just tried starting before I hot wired it no, it was the following day and I had forgotten that the relay was still removed, the other Relay in my handbook T43 I could not find where that is located ??, and the two you indicate R2 and R3 where are these located as I can find no reference to these in my hand book, again thanks for all you help, Regards DM
Hi Ian,Thanks again for all your help and the Pics, The relay I changed was T20 behind the glove box ?, but as I said with it removed it would still start so definitely the wrong relay, and as you asked had I just tried starting before I hot wired it no, it was the following day and I had forgotten that the relay was still removed, the other Relay in my handbook T43 I could not find where that is located ??, and the two you indicate R2 and R3 where are these located as I can find no reference to these in my hand book, again thanks for all you help, Regards DM
It seems that there are variations between 458's. Here are some shots of my Owner's Manual (slightly different to the WSM).
In my version, relay T43 is shown, but no function is assigned to it. R1 and R2 are mentioned, but not shown in the photo.
R1 and R2 (or R2 & R3) seem to be optional.
Try pulling the blue relay on the lower panel (behind the driver) and see if the starter motor cranks.
Regarding the glovebox relays. Here are some shots of my Owner's Manual:
T20 is not listed, but T40 is assigned to start. These manuals are hopeless.
Also try pulling T40 to see if cranking is inhibited.
All I can suggest is buying a few spare relays for faultfinding (I don't know enough about the car to suggest swapping relays).
In my version, relay T43 is shown, but no function is assigned to it. R1 and R2 are mentioned, but not shown in the photo.
R1 and R2 (or R2 & R3) seem to be optional.
Try pulling the blue relay on the lower panel (behind the driver) and see if the starter motor cranks.
Regarding the glovebox relays. Here are some shots of my Owner's Manual:
T20 is not listed, but T40 is assigned to start. These manuals are hopeless.
Also try pulling T40 to see if cranking is inhibited.
All I can suggest is buying a few spare relays for faultfinding (I don't know enough about the car to suggest swapping relays).
Here's part of the start circuit, but it's not very clear:
The DCT system controls the start relay T43 behind the left hand seat (separate light blue relay)
The Start pushbutton probably talks to the DCT system on a CAN Bus. If start reqirements are satisfied, then the DCT TCU energises the coil of T43.
I don't have any other diagrams with details on the starter motor.
The DCT system controls the start relay T43 behind the left hand seat (separate light blue relay)
The Start pushbutton probably talks to the DCT system on a CAN Bus. If start reqirements are satisfied, then the DCT TCU energises the coil of T43.
I don't have any other diagrams with details on the starter motor.
458 Starting Problem
Hi Ian, Thanks again, I will get a spare 30amp relay ( Blue one) and swap with relevent starter ones, in my Handbook T40 is Rad Fan, I have just discovered that there are more Fuses and relays to the left of the obvious ones behind the Glovebox ?? but cannot see how to get to them ???, anyway leave it with me and as soon as I know more I will come back to you, again Thanks for all the help, Regards DM
Hi Ian, Thanks again, I will get a spare 30amp relay ( Blue one) and swap with relevent starter ones, in my Handbook T40 is Rad Fan, I have just discovered that there are more Fuses and relays to the left of the obvious ones behind the Glovebox ?? but cannot see how to get to them ???, anyway leave it with me and as soon as I know more I will come back to you, again Thanks for all the help, Regards DM
What I should have stressed is that when comparing fuse and relay numbers between different 458's is that the numbers change, but that the location of a relay with a particular function does not. The blue relay on that lower panel shouldn't change functions.
i.e. when minor electrical changes are made to the car, they do not change the wiring to every relay.
Maybe if you change a relay, perhaps you could use my diagrams to say which relay number you changed?
i.e. when minor electrical changes are made to the car, they do not change the wiring to every relay.
Maybe if you change a relay, perhaps you could use my diagrams to say which relay number you changed?
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I have the same problem for years now. I would add that disconnecting the battery after engine stop and reconnecting it just before start, even weeks after, and all is normal (no battery conditioners required).
When connected to a battery conditioners, the problem persists.
If anyone has the solution...
When connected to a battery conditioners, the problem persists.
If anyone has the solution...