Red Bull - opinions

[cgt]

It's pretty clear that Bernie is working behind the scenes to prevent RB and TR leaving and give them as much leeway as possible, but the bottom line is that this mess is of their own making.

The first rule in any type of business is to not fall out with your main supplier especially if you don't have an alternative lined up. I have read that part of Merc's reluctance to supply them has been their public attitude when they are not winning, a big corporate like Daimler simply does not need to be in business with such a partner.

Now I read that the arrogance continues, with Red Bull stating they will leave unless they get the same works engines as Ferrari.

They have two great drivers in Ricciardo and Verstappen but when I read things like this my view is that they should probably stop whining and f*** off!

 

[jos]

I suspect there's quite a lot of jockeying at the moment

Red Bull Racing (the team not the sponsor) are contracted to F1 in theory til 2020 along with some/all major teams

Ferrari are allegedly offering them 2015 engines not even the 2016 customer units offered to Sauber

There may be an end-game of all garagistes forced out in favour of manufacturers

It is not illogical for a big corporate sponsor to find its priorities have changed after a decade eg Vodafone so there is an argument that Mateschitz will only be around for as long as it suits him (or whenever his product is heading out of fashion or faces too much competition eg Monster who are almost as visible for a far lower spend)

There's the CVC buy-out back-story

Even before their woes would VW really have wanted to get into bed with a team that whose engines are very publicly at fault if they don't win

And then there's the EU investigation to come over the next couple of years

My conclusion: he wants out as a double owner but is prepared to remain as a sponsor of a winning (manufacturer) team as long as he wants to maintain the visibility of his ladder of success

 

[cgt]

I suspect there's quite a lot of jockeying at the moment

Red Bull Racing (the team not the sponsor) are contracted to F1 in theory til 2020 along with some/all major teams

Ferrari are allegedly offering them 2015 engines not even the 2016 customer units offered to Sauber

There may be an end-game of all garagistes forced out in favour of manufacturers

It is not illogical for a big corporate sponsor to find its priorities have changed after a decade eg Vodafone so there is an argument that Mateschitz will only be around for as long as it suits him (or whenever his product is heading out of fashion or faces too much competition eg Monster who are almost as visible for a far lower spend)

There's the CVC buy-out back-story

Even before their woes would VW really have wanted to get into bed with a team that whose engines are very publicly at fault if they don't win

And then there's the EU investigation to come over the next couple of years

My conclusion: he wants out as a double owner but is prepared to remain as a sponsor of a winning (manufacturer) team as long as he wants to maintain the visibility of his ladder of success

I agree, the question is do manufacturers want to be involved? Honda's painful experience has illustrated how hard it is for a company to come in and be anywhere near in the short term, and the negative PR may well outweigh everything else.

 

[sssdu01]

I agree, the question is do manufacturers want to be involved? Honda's painful experience has illustrated how hard it is for a company to come in and be anywhere near in the short term, and the negative PR may well outweigh everything else.

Yes and what makes it even worse for Honda is they had a free year to copy/improve on what the best had done before they had to "submit" their final design. I do recall some other engine manufacturers having a winge that Honda had a big advantage. Well it got them to the back of the grid !! and now Honda have to pull a miracle out of the bag or give up in shame and humiliation.

 

[cgt]

Yes and what makes it even worse for Honda is they had a free year to copy/improve on what the best had done before they had to "submit" their final design. I do recall some other engine manufacturers having a winge that Honda had a big advantage. Well it got them to the back of the grid !! and now Honda have to pull a miracle out of the bag or give up in shame and humiliation.

I don't think they will give up but it will be a lot of pain yet before they get to the front, and it is a process that may take 3-4 years. Alonso and Button I suspect will be long gone by then.

 

[Murph7355]

I don't care. Can't stand bleating losers. One of the biggest ills of the sport is that.

 

[cgt]

I don't care. Can't stand bleating losers. One of the biggest ills of the sport is that.

Yes it's ironic that for a company which is only in the sport for marketing purposes, their childish behaviour has done huge damage to their brand as they come across as arrogant, hypocritical and seeking an unfair advantage when things don't go their way.

It also illustrates how out of touch Ecclestone and his cronies are with F1 fans.

 

[cgt]

From the BBC website, Max to Ferrari?

Red Bull and Ferrari both have cards to play

Red Bull have a negotiating position. Ferrari wants to change the engine development rules for next year, to give it a chance of surpassing Mercedes.

Currently, in-season engine development is banned again next year, after being permitted on a limited basis this season. Ferrari want the system that has applied this year to continue - and Honda and Renault want completely open development, to try to close the chasm that exists between them and the others. Mercedes are open to discussion.

But for this to be allowed, all the teams need to agree - and Red Bull could threaten to block it unless they are given a 2016 Ferrari engine.

Ferrari, though, also have cards in their hands.

Red Bull have under contract four of the most promising young drivers in F1. Ferrari initially had Ricciardo at the top of their list as a potential replacement for Kimi Raikkonen in 2016, but he is locked into Red Bull until the end of 2018.

The Italian team are also interested in Toro Rosso's teenage sensation Max Verstappen, who has a three-year deal with Red Bull until the end of 2017.

Ferrari could use their interest in either of them as leverage in the engine negotiations.

It's a game of brinksmanship. Who will win? The Austrian soft drinks billionaire? Or the world's most glamorous car brand?

 

[Roony]

it would be much easier if they just said fit your car with V8 engine... bolloxs to all this hybrid stuff.... after all thats what the made the glory days of F1 what they are...

 

[jos]

So as of today it is possible that Torro Rosso have accepted 2015 Ferrari engines but that Red Bull have a USD 500 000 000 penalty clause to break their F1 participation contract so it is cheaper for Mateschitz to trundle round with any old engine and reap the advertising reward

One of the wilder ideas is that as a result Renault might jump ship and buy Red Bull instead of Lotus :hmmm: - the merits being better designers better chassis better drivers better facilities better income

Indeed Autosport are now confirming some sort of new discussions which may result in continued engine supply (never say never in F1......)

 

[512kr]

Remembered that programme I used watch as a kid JACKANORY:laugh::laugh:

 

[cgt]

It's truly incredible to see a high powered F1 Team Principal appearing like a deer caught in the headlights on TV today, I don't know what to make of it, but the body language from Horner suggests the ''Oh sh*t, we don't have an engine'' moment has finally dawned.

I am amazed.

Oh to turn back the clock and have a bit of humility and respect for their engine partner. For all his critics, you have to admire the way Ron Dennis (and Alonso, Button too) are handling the Honda situation (radio outburst notwithstanding!).. apparently even Honda won't supply Red Bull!!!